Documents / Hearing transcript
This is the official transcript of a July 26, 2023 hearing held by the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Accountability's Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs. The hearing was titled "Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency." Ryan Graves, David Grusch and retired Commander David Fravor testified. Members pressed for transparency and whistleblower protections, and Graves described a near miss involving a dark cube inside a clear sphere.
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22 And so that was—kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing and so I reached out to colleagues back on the East Coast and realized that this was still a safety risk that they were dealing with, that they had essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation. It was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward my- self. Mr. RASKIN. Are there common characteristics to the UAPs that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is? Mr. GRAVES. Certainly. We were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere. Mr. RASKIN. I am sorry. Dark gray or black cubes? Mr. GRAVES. Yes, inside of a clear sphere where the apex or tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere, and that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects. That occurred over almost 8 years and as far as I know is still occurring. Mr. RASKIN. So, I take it that you are arguing what we need is real transparency and a reporting system so we can get some clar- ity on what is going on out there because there are many pilots in your situation. But we should have a way of developing a system- atic inventory of all of such encounters. Is that right? Mr. GRAVES. Yes, and I think we need both transparency and the reporting. We have the reporting, but we need to make sure that information can be promulgated to commercial aviation as well as the rest of the populace. Mr. RASKIN. Mr. Grusch, what about you? What was your experi- ence after you came forward? Mr. GRUSCH. Well, it has only been about 2 months or so. So, I guess my experience has been overwhelming support from former colleagues of mine that have, you know, privately messaged me and I do appreciate that. But I do have knowledge of active planned reprisal activity against myself, and other colleagues and it is very, very upsetting to me. Mr. RASKIN. Coming from where? Mr. GRUSCH. Certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with and that is all I will say publicly. But I can provide more details in a closed environment. Mr. RASKIN. OK. Well, I hope you understand that there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt to vilify, demonize, or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective. Mr. GRUSCH. Yes. There were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked, and it actually makes me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last 3 years. Mr. RASKIN. How do you account for that response? That seems like a bizarre response. Mr. GRUSCH. I call it administrative terrorism. That is their quiver—their tool in the toolbox to silence people, especially, you know, career government service cares about their career, cares about their clearance, their reputation to climb the ladder, and
Hearing transcript, cited by the archive. The PDF is mirrored here; the original link is under it. 54 pages are in the text index: search them above, or from the library's search.