Documents / Hearing transcript
This is the transcript of a joint hearing held November 13, 2024 by two subcommittees of the U.S. House Committee on Oversight and Accountability, chaired by Rep. Nancy Mace. The witnesses were Tim Gallaudet, Luis Elizondo, Michael Shellenberger and Michael Gold. They addressed government secrecy, AARO's transparency, a Pentagon document on the alleged Immaculate Constellation program, threats to pilot safety, and UAP activity near nuclear and military sites. Members also discussed UAP disclosure legislation.
“The Times”27 pages
37 There is also, then, the philosophical argument that the Depart- ment of Defense and the intelligence community is solution-ori- ented, and when you do not have answers, it is a really tough spot to be in. Mr. BIGGS. It is easier to be quiet and suppress if you do not have the answer. Mr. ELIZONDO. Indeed, sir. Mr. BIGGS. OK. Mr. ELIZONDO. In fact, there is a very real example when we built the U–2 spy plane and flew it over then-Russia and were tak- ing reconnaissance. And when we first started flying the aircraft, it flew so high and so fast we thought they were not tracking us. In reality, they were tracking every flight. Mr. BIGGS. Yes. Mr. ELIZONDO. It wasn’t until the Russians could develop the SA–2 surface-to-air missile and successfully shoot them down—— Mr. BIGGS. And I would suggest to you also, along with Lakatos and Kuhn, you also have a problem with Kenneth Arrow’s path de- pendence and increasing returns. That is one reason why they will not disclose it, is it is too painful to admit. But I just want to read a couple things from Mr. Shellenberger’s—what he gave to us today, because I think this is interesting stuff, and I just want to convey this to you. ‘‘On USG networks, there exists infrared footage of and imagery of a grouping of vessels engaged in SIGINT and MASINT collection at night in a specific area of the Pacific Ocean. In this footage, which was in close proximity to the vessels, a large equilateral-tri- angle UAP suddenly appears directly over the ships. Three bright points are seen at each bottom corner of the UAP, which is ob- served to slowly rotate on its horizontal access.’’ And he goes on to describe that. And I just want to read one more. And I am doing this because I think it is interesting; this stuff is interesting as anything. So, let us get this one here, right here. ‘‘While performing a routine Airspace Surveillance and Control Mission in the Eastern Air Defense Sector, an F–22 fighter ob- served multiple UAP contacts at mission altitude. Moving to inter- cept, the F–22 pilot noted multiple metallic orbs, slightly smaller than a sedan, hovering in place. Upon vectoring toward the UAPs, a smaller formation of the metallic orbs accelerated at rapid speed toward the F–22, which was unable to establish radar locks on the presumed-hostile UAPs. The F–22 broke trajectory and attempted to evade but was intercepted and boxed in by approximately three to six UAPs.’’ And then I will leave that there, because I just have no more time left. I—well, she is not looking. So, let us just get into—let us get into part of this—— Mr. GOLD. I thought I would be saved by the bell. Mr. BIGGS. No, no. Let us talk about Kuhnian, Lakatosian type of scientific development. And the problem that we have here is, you have institutional blockage of what would be normal develop- ment of scientific ideas. And if you want to expand on that, Mr. Gold? Ms. MACE. We are over time, so be very fast, please.
Hearing transcript, from the hearings collection. The PDF is mirrored here; the original link is under it. 52 pages are in the text index: search them above, or from the library's search.